Demonic Possession or Epilepsy?

More on the movie "The Exorcism of Emily Rose."

It is based on a true story. But the story actually happened in Bavaria, and the girl's name was Anneliese Michel. She was in her early 20's. And she did die as she was exorcised. The priests that performed the exorcism were put on trial for negligence. The priests argued that the possession was real.

There are some differing views:
The ultimate escalation of mythomania is not only telling stories and believing them, but acting them out. There are innumerable historical episodes exemplifying this type of mythomaniacal enactment, with the classic case being "possession." The state of being "possessed" signifies the escalation from being a mythomane to being a "demonopath," a person claiming to be suffering from demonic torments. The demonopath is far from being a passive victim of his or her affliction and was often the active initiator of witch panics, playing an aggressive role in the prosecution of witches.

Also, the demonopath is far from being a historical relic. The case of Anneliese Michel deserves mention, if for no other reason than to demonstrate historical continuity of religio-cultural images.

That was the Freuds and their take on the case. I believe demonic possession's can and do happen - despite what the freuds say. The only question I have is whether or not this girl was truly possessed.

This is just freaky:
Pastor Alt and Father Renz try to save Anneliese from, in the meantime over 6 individuals (Lucifer, Judas Iscariot, Nero, Cain, Hitler and Fleischmann, a disgraced Frankish Priest from the 16th century, and some other "Damned"), which manifested thru her.

I'm guessing that's the same Hitler we all know. I wonder whether he'll appear in the film or not. The interesting thing about all of this is that a full fledged Christian writer is behind the movie. Which probably explains why it hasn't been destroyed in Hollywood anti-religious fanaticalism.

The exciting thing about this movie is it asks the question: are demonic possessions for real? I believe they are. Most people brush it off, saying these people are mentally ill, or have some other explanable decease. But the Church isn't so stupid. In this case, they initially refused to perform the exorcism in favour of conventional treatment first. When that didn't seem to be working, and the required evidence was there, they did what needed to be done.

It puts the question on the table. And that's the important thing. If they really wanted to make money with this thing they would consider marketing it the same way the Passion was marketed. But so far, it's getting little attention.

44 comments:

  1. I think the film company, decided to market the film more along the lines of The Exorcist than along the lines of The Passion.

    For one reason, I think they didn't want to piss off many Jews, seeing how The Passion pissed them off. I'm Jewish myself, and didn't really favor Mel Gibson's, "Well it's historically accurate" BS excuse for making it as if only the Jews wanted Jesus dead.

    I assume that when most Jewish people here one of the demons Emily is succombed by is Hitler, that won't exactly drag them into the theaters either. I'm strange though, I mean I like Rammstein and German horror films. So I really don't find the whole Hitler thing that offensive. He was a nut. There were alot of things that contributed to the Nazi regime, Hitler just was the most visible trademark of the whole anti-Jewish movement.

    I also think they didn't advertise this film as a relgious film in the same vein as The Passion, because it seems to be somewhat mocking of Christianity. I mean, like The Exorcist was like that too. Most people who saw The Exorcist didn't care if Christ won, they just wanted to see a freaky chick wigging out.

    I also could see some allusions between how Emily Rose acts, and how Marilyn Manson portrays himself..and we all know how much Christians just llooooovee Marilyn Manson. LoL

    So those are my views on the film. I think it's fascinating that they're considering wether possession is real, or if it was a way to classify something like a horrible mental illness, for which they didn't have the knowledge at the time to deal with. Like with medication for example.

    I also hope they dispell that annoying myth, that you will be posessed by the Ouija board! I've used it, and I'm not possessed. So ha! I was very depressed at the time, it's a long story..I really wasn't in my right mind. Neverless, I can certifiably prove I was not posessed.

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  2. Anonymous10:52 PM

    What I find curious as a humanist is that christians seem to be the only people that fall for the premise that "evil" can take over our bodies and make us do something we shouldn't. They believe that there is either good or evil in the world and totally discount the fact that millions of humans go through life with absolutely nothing extraordinary happening to them... no really good... no really bad... imagine that... I think of these religious stories as nothing more than another sci-fi... comic... and I believe in the devil...like I believe in superman...lol

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  3. Anonymous8:26 PM

    YOU MAY NOT BELIEVE IN THE DEVIL, BUT HE BELIEVES IN YOU.......

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  4. Anonymous4:27 AM

    Hehe, the devil knows me? Get off your soapbox. The person above you has it right. Why are christians the only people who ever seem to suffer from demonic possession? I'm a big believer in people taking the path of least resistance. I think that she probably couldn't get a satisfactory answer for her affliction from modern scientists, so when another alternative was presented to her she subconciously began playing into that theory. It would be easy to imagine how, in the face of a terrible unknown, it would be so simple to convince yourself of the terrible thing that at least has a name.

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  5. Some of the comments I've been getting aren't well informed.

    First of all, the idea that only Christians have ever been posessed is not exactly right as far as I know.

    The original Exorcist movies were based on the case of a young male child posessed in the US. He was the son of non-catholic Christians that had no knowledge of demonic posessions. He had used a luigi board recently. I think it was his case that caused the whole luigi board scare from regilious christians in the last twenty years. It doesn't mean that a luigi board will cause you to loose your soul, but it does mean that it's probably not a good idea.

    Also certain other religions like Buddhism have practices where people become posessed by spirits. The concern many have, is who, and what are those spirits? Either way posessions aren't just a Christian idea.

    And also there is evil in the world. For those that have been suggesting otherwise, we're going to have to agree to disagree. And honestly I can't understand how anyone could say otherwise.

    Hitler wasn't exactly a nice guy you know. And I'm sorry but I believe he was evil. In fact some people used to say that it seemed like he became posessed as soon as he would begin to give a speech. Those are their words not mine.

    Either way, I'm getting the feeling that this movie is going to do better than many anticipate. This whole debate over whether or not posessions are real or not, and whether this girl was actually posessed is going to attract the attention of the religious and the non-religious alike.

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  6. Anonymous10:45 PM

    One should ask why Christianity seems to be attacked so much more often by demonic forces than other people or other religions. I believe Satan wants to destroy God's children (Christians) and gets little benefit from attacking those who do not know Christ. He will be more than willing to leave Muslims, Hindus, agnostics, and pagans alone so they can continue their path toward him.

    There is a spiritual battle going on in our world today and it is up to Christians around the world who know the truth to share it with as many as possible. It is our job to love all those who don't know Christ and share with them the salvation that will last for eternity.

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  7. Anonymous7:08 AM

    omg are YOU hitler?

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  8. Anonymous6:37 PM

    The best trick the devil has ever played on man is making us believe he does not exist. I believe the devil is too smart for man and that people that are so condescending to say that "They know that there is no such thing." I can't say the devil is real nor is god, but thats why it is a belief and requires faith. I belive there is a devil and that he realizes how easy it is to brainwash man and has done quite a good job of it. The devil is practically screaming at us (just look at Marlyn Manson,) and at the same time saying "Oh its all just a show and a way to rebell against a controlling christian society. Christians make the problem worse by regurgitating everything their right wing conservative parents and the church has told them thus destroying any credibilitly they claim to have. The devil has his hands in every religion. To say "I used a ouji board and I'm not possessed.) is like saying I did meth once and look at me "I'm not an addict."

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  9. Anonymous4:17 PM

    Christians are not nearly the only religion that have members that get possed there many african religions that have the same problem (I know some) I have epilepsy but have never been considerd possed and Marlyn Manson is a marketing genious it's all a show just listen to an interview he's very articulate. There are also lot's of casses of possion in Haiti if you don't believe me read the rainbow and the serphent it's a great book. I don't consider myself extramly religios I haven't been to church in about 3 years but I know that there has to be something to it because it hapens to so many people in so many divers religions. It even happend to indian's before you go around throughing out acusations do some research and dont correct my harrable spelling i'm in a rush. Piece.

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  10. Melissa in Indiana8:53 PM

    The Serpent and the Rainbow wasn't so much about possession as it was about zombies. First of all the difference between the two is that a possession is the notion, or idea, that an evil spirit can inhabit the body and soul of a poor and defenseless mere mortal, while a zombie is just made by mere mortals with the poison from a puffer fish. The zombie in question is never really dead, just drugged enough to appear so. Big difference there. I also believe that demon possession is entirely possible given the right circumstances and the right person. Such as hypnosis. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying that demon possession and hypnosis are the same thing, but what I am saying is that I believe that hypnosis can only be achieved when someone hasn't much willpower and one can mold thier minds to whatever they want them to be. Demons, in my opinion, cannot possess someone who 1.) doesn't believe Jesus Christ as thier Lord and personal savior (as it has already been mentioned, why would they want to?), and 2.) has strong enough willpower to not let them in. If your faith (or for that matter lack of faith) is strong enough, demon possession would seem like an unlikely occurence because it wouldn't happen to you.
    Furthermore, I just want to see the movie cause it looks like it has some fairly decent scary parts.

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  11. Anonymous7:57 PM

    i just happened upon this and I'm a Christian who listens to metal, and many bands out there make Marilyn Manson look like fairy princess. Dark Funeral, Mayhem, Burzum, Vital Remains, ect. though i don't listen to those bands personally, they do exist... besides Marilyn Manson as a band suck...

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  12. Anonymous12:09 AM

    I am excited to see this movie but not because I believe it poses a real question of human possession or not. Horror movies are hot right now, and that's why this movie was made. It has nothing to do with Judaism or Christianity, but the true American reeligion: money. Nor do I believe that the mention of Hitler as being one of the Daemonic possessors will hinder many Jewish people from seeing these movie.... I found that commend to be rather bizarre. I am an atheist and though raised catholic, do not believe Christian mythology. Think about it...especially the religious fanatics that are so hypocritically intolerant, what would you believe in if you were born in New Delhi? Pakistan? Particular religious faiths are a matter of circumstance only. Yes there are a few "thinkers" out there that actually question religion and don't accept what they are taught as schoolchildren to be irrefutable, simply because it was ingrained in their psyche. Ok so I'm cynical, but I'm not saying people are stupid to believe in God.... believe what you want.... I just think it's stupid to never question, to never think, to never learn about the history of religion and it's developments, some assimiated from paganism. I also think that people who claim religious authority and virtue while persecuting those of alternate faiths, races, or sexuality are a disgrace to the human race (yes Mr. Bush- that means you-take a science class for Christ's sake mmmm sorry for the pun)

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  13. Anonymous12:28 AM

    oh yeah, and back when I was a kid and did believe in my Catholic brainwashing (honey it's not the devil,but the Church, the Temple, and the Koran that do the brainwashing) I held many a seance and used many a ouigi board and must say, quite to my disappointment at the time, encountered no spirits. I will say that if what we "call" the supernatural ie Ghosts etc, are actual, it probably has more basis in Science than religion. Quantum Theory and String Theory, the attempts to unify the behavior of all matter on Earth (see, atoms behave quite differently than large bodies as they are unaffected by gravitation force) predicts 13 possible dimensions. Now I'm not saying this because I necessarily believe it, only to pose the question. What if what we see as ghosts are actually glimpses of other dimensions? String theory also poses that the time/ space continuum may not be a continuum or straight line. This is weird I know, but currently accepted by many world reknowned physicists. I think it poses much more interesting and valid questions than whether or not there is a fiery pit in the earth where "soul" like me will go simply because I don't believe Jesus Christ was borne of divinity. I think he was a great man, who taught great ideals. For all you Christians out there who think salvation is only for those who believe, you can have heaven... I certainly wouldn't want to be there with you. Now that would be hell! Why would I even want a God that thinks it's more important that he or she be worshipped than it is to be kind, tolerant,sacrificial and loving towards fellow man? Sounds like vanity to me.

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  14. Anonymous9:36 PM

    I think it is absolutely absurd of who will find this film offensive as to their religion. I don't think it should really have anything to do with whether you're jewish or christian. I am catholic (by birth). What this means is that I was baptized Roman Catholic but I don't practice my religion at all. I don't feel that I need to be inside a church or tell a priest about things that I have done wrong. I believe in God but I believe that I can speak to him whenever I want without having to be inside a building. I do believe in demons and spirits and I don't think that this movie should be related to the "Passion" movie or the "Exorcist". I think people should stop trying to categorize movies and see it for what it is....the movie maker's interpretation of ideas and views that they want to express on film. Yes, it is all about interpretation for each individual but I think some of the comments left on here about not wanting to see a movie because Hitler may have been one of the so-called demons possessing the girl is ridiculous. I am looking forward to seeing this movie because I try to have an open mind about things. It's almost like people that don't believe in life in outer space. All I'm saying is that people should try to be open-minded and stop bringing religion into everything.

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  15. Anonymous7:22 PM

    wow, interesting comments... some who read this may know as well as i do that the spiritual world is extremely real and just as dangerous. nothing to mess with that is for sure. be careful. i am sorry for thse who foolishly think otherwise. it is not all fun hollywood times.

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  16. Anonymous10:03 PM

    I have actully seen 2 services were people were possessed.It is very scary and is nothing to play with. I will pray for those of you who do not believe. If you don't believe in evil, then you are blind to what is happening in the world. God is very real and so is the devil. The devil does not bother the nonbeliever because you ar not a threat to him.

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  17. Anonymous10:20 AM

    I am a Christian and I don’t know how I would live without having the Lord in my life. I have been through a lot of shit, more then most people, yet I keep strong with believing in Christ. I am not a bible thumper, I am just telling my side. I think its funny how Christians are beaten down by 'everyone' in the world, yet it’s a crime to say anything wrong about any other religion or non believer. Really let yourself think about why this is. Open up your mind and try to understand why Christians are so often criticized for everything they say or do. Now if you have no clue as to why I am saying this, stop being ignorant and read the bible... If you get nothing out of it then throw it aside, because your fate is already chosen. One day you will realize the truth.

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  18. Anonymous10:25 AM

    as far as Christian's being the ones who suffer from demonic possession.. THEY CANT! A true believer cannot have an evil demon in them. HELLO!! Half you people are trying to explain a subject you dont even believe in..

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  19. The Avenger4:09 PM

    I stumbled on this board while googling Emily Rose, and I have to reply. Jason, are you an idiot? It is people like you, lacking any critical thought process, believing what seems cool instead of what is supported by the evidence, who lower the collective IQ of humanity. Have you ever seen a possessed person? Doesn't the claim of possession, especially in the light of our growing understanding of mental illness, strike you as extraordinary? Open-minded people are open to new evidence. People who will believe anything are just gullible. By the way a luigi board is something used by Mario's brother. It's a Ouija Board, you retard. Why don't you go join a cult and drink some cyanide Kool-Aid instead of contaminating the rest of us with your ignorance.

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  20. Hello my children:
    Through reading your comments here, I have to say you are definetely using your free will, I put my son on earth to clean things up and you decided for me that the only way to get across to you was to make a marter of him. He tried to get the real meaning of life across to you, and each of you decided to listen or not. Using your option of free will.
    His was not a wasted life, he talked me into changing the rules a little "Lighten the weight of Piety" and after he came home I forgave and forgot alot of your "issues". You are all my children. I know you all.

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  21. Reality is something that should be questioned. i do think however, that any person who says that by reason they can understand reality is a bit off. simply because you don't understand something doesn't mean it is not real. if someone could just draw me a perfect circle freehand, then i will believe that a human mind can create a perfect system of reason. if not, then we have to accept the possibility of their being something beyond reason that makes us understand the concept of perfection. i happen to think that is God.
    if the devil exists, then it would be most logical for him to try to make people believe he doesn't exist, because if his goal is to take people from God, what better way than to blame God for all evil and to hide his existence behind the overhpyed rebellion against dogma theory we hear all the time.
    if the theory of evolution is possible, then demonic possession is possible. you can't discount something because you don't understand it.

    peace

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  22. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  23. "I stumbled on this board while googling Emily Rose, and I have to reply. Jason, are you an idiot?"

    You know, I don't know what I did to offend you, but I try very hard to avoid name-calling and emotional responses. Because that would be idiotic.

    "It is people like you, lacking any critical thought process, believing what seems cool instead of what is supported by the evidence, who lower the collective IQ of humanity."

    I have to ask, just what exactly makes you think I lack any critical thought process? You know, you might want to try intelligent debate to convince other people that they are wrong. It tends to get a better reaction.

    "Have you ever seen a possessed person? Doesn't the claim of possession, especially in the light of our growing understanding of mental illness, strike you as extraordinary?"

    Now I'm mentally ill? Look, I don't know what your experiences have been in life, and I try honestly to respect other people's opinions. But you are making that about as hard as you possibly can.

    I'm sorry but I believe demonic posessions do happen. I believe that demons do exist. And I think that sometimes mental illness is misdiagnosed by many well intentioned people when it's really not that at all.

    No I haven't ever seen a possessed person. And I haven't seen a murderer either but that doesn't mean I don't believe in murderers.

    "Open-minded people are open to new evidence. People who will believe anything are just gullible."

    So what's your evidence? You know, you talk about me not having an open mind... But honestly, I can't help but think you aren't being very open minded yourself.

    I asked the question, and have an opinion. You can disagree with that opinion - that's fine. But it would be usefull if you gave some reasons why you disagree instead of... well your vapid hot air.

    "By the way a luigi board is something used by Mario's brother. It's a Ouija Board, you retard."

    Mispelled something. Not bad for an Engineer. Well apparently one spelling mistake discounts everything else I believe. Honestly buddy you're making me think you're like 12 years old.

    "Why don't you go join a cult and drink some cyanide Kool-Aid instead of contaminating the rest of us with your ignorance."

    Thank you for wasting ten minutes of my life.

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  24. The Avenger5:39 PM

    Jason --
    Cry me a river. Your mild-mannered, hurt attitude does not offset your ignorance. Evolution is a scientific theory based on
    1) observations of current animal and plant life which anyone can examine as evidence to see if it fits the conclusion
    2) fossil evidence which can be viewed in the form of photographs, or even live in museums all over the world. ("How do I know it's not faked?" asks Jason the Genius. Because the magnitude of conspiracy required to manufacture the gross volume of evidence which has been amassed, coupled with the necessity for a fiendishly successful conspiracy of silence on the part of everyone ever involved (not to mention the impressive devotion and educational credentials of these people and the lack of evidence of any such conspiracy) makes the prospect sheer speculation.) -- JUST LIKE DEMONIC POSSESSION!
    3) the fact that genetic comparison also supports the concept of common ancestry and seems to match our interpretation of the fossil record.
    There is, on the other hand, no hard, consistent, testable, verifiable, duplicatible evidence of demonic possession. Just the pissing and moaning of people like yourself who are too intellectually lazy to separate theory from fantasy. If you think you were possessed, you are either mentally ill or just another deluded soul who wants to feel that his life has some cosmic significance, and that there is a nice man in the sky who created him and cares for him, but will send him to hell if he's not a good little boy. Do I sound angry? Good. Because deliberately stupid people like you are speed bumps for humanity and deserve nothing but contempt.
    Now, how 'bout that Kool-Aid?

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  25. Anonymous6:41 PM

    You must remember that this case began in 1968, and ended with her death from starvation in 1976. The understanding of mental illnesses 30 years ago was quite off from what it is today. At the time they tried treating her seizures with medication, but her condition only worsened. The girl suffered for many years before the exorcism began, and by the time it did, she was half out of her mind. Whether she was really possessed or it was simply a case of misdiagnosis' and wrong treatments leading to insanity that was misconstrued by religious family and church members as demonic possession will never be known. Whether you believe in God, possession, demons, or anything at all, is not the point. The true tragedy here is the fact that this girl did not have to die. Had she been force-fed, instead of allowed to starve herself, by the priests and her parents who were blinded by their belief that it was demons possessing her, she would have lived through the experience to have become either demon-free, or treated by the correct modern medicine. Her condition started mildly, and since treatments were not working as hoped, she suffered for nearly eight years, ending in total insanity, whther possessed or not. Too many times these days, we tend to turn everything into a religious debate, and forget the people who suffer because of it.

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  26. More than meets the eye...1:29 AM

    I agree with the last comment, the sadest event is that some died here....however, there are too many unexplainable uncertainties involved. For example, if you look at the "required" proof for the church to be able to perform an exorcism, such as "speaking in unfamiliar languages...well, how do you explain that? Keep in mind that most of these exorcisms are documented and recorded. So there is proof. And look at the physical changes that are recorded, such as signifigant lower voice change, accent, instant physical marks and signs. Do your research on other actual exorcisms. This is real in my opinion. Real, recorded, and documented. Explainable? No. Real? Absolutely!

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  27. Anonymous8:18 AM

    Avenger:

    As far as I know there is still a missing link in the theory of evolution. Also basis on genetics; a common housefly has more DNA sequences than a human being, while a human being has more than an earth worm. This is way too diverse to say everything is a relative. Another thing I have a problem with on evolution. The comet that came and destroyed the dinosaurs destroyed everything larger than the size of a cat on land, leaving the creatures in the water alone. So if mammals the size of a cat or smaller survived, then mammals today evolved from them right? Not acording to the theory. Water creatures grew legs, then lungs, then crawled out of the water, grew hair, climbed trees, then invented rocketships to travel to the moon. You would thing Darwin's theory would take the path of least resistance, but it didn't. Plus Darwin himself doubted some aspects of his theory in the end. Science is just as much a religion as religion itself. It is based of faith when an answer is not known called theories and hypothesis. For instance, cell theory. A cell can only come from another cell. Where did the first cell come from if a cell can only come from another cell? It doesn't mention that and noone seemed to question it. Science has a problem on admitting the "I don't know" factor. Ask any doctor and they will never say, "I don't know. I'm completely stumped." Just like religion, science comes up with an explaination that is very difficult to prove. So, science is a religion based on earthly measures other than God. Science can't prove God doesn't exist much like a priest can't prove that science is a hoax. Until we admit there are things noone can explain at the moment, then we will always have these types of arguements. When somethingstrange happens, you can bet your bottom dollar I will find out why it did that instead of pulling an explaination out of my arse and call it science or religion. And I would definately be the first to say, "That was wierd. I haven't got a clue to how that happened."

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  28. Anonymous8:18 AM

    Avenger:

    As far as I know there is still a missing link in the theory of evolution. Also basis on genetics; a common housefly has more DNA sequences than a human being, while a human being has more than an earth worm. This is way to diverse to say everything is a relative. Another thing I have a problem with on evolution. The comet that came and destroyed the dinosaurs destroyed everything larger than the size of a cat on land, leaving the creatures in the water alone. So if mammals the size of a cat or smaller survived, then mammals today evolved from them right? Not acording to the theory. Water creatures grew legs, then jungs, then crawled out of the water, grew hair, climbed trees, then invented rocketships to travel to the moon. You owuld thing Darwin's theory would take the path of least resistance, but it didn't. Science is just as much a religion as religion itself. It is based of faith when an answer is not known. For insctance, cell theory. A cell can only come from another cell. Where did the first cell come from if a cell can only come from another cell? Science has a problem on admitting the "I don't know" factor. Ask any doctor and they will never say, "I don't know. I'm completely stumped." Just like religion, science comes up with an explaination that is very difficult to prove. So, science is a religion based on earthly measures.

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  29. Anonymous8:20 AM

    That was wierd. I have no clue how that happened. :)

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  30. THE AVENGER1:48 PM

    Dear Anonymous --
    Science is a method for determining truth. Religion is a set of beliefs which are set forth AS truth. Scientific theories are formulated around evidence. Religion ignores evidence which does not support its predetermined version of the truth, while embracing any tidbit which does. As far as the "missing link" goes, the fossil record is filled with transitional species including hominids (humanlike species) which support the hypothesis of increasing complexity and diversity over time. As far as the housefly goes, it does not have more genetic material than a human being. It simply has a lot more genetic material than we expected it to. As far as the "comet" that hit Earth 65 million years ago --
    1) It it is generally thought to have been an asteroid, not a comet

    2) I have never heard or read any scientific claim that it killed all life larger than a cat

    3) Mammals already existed at that time according to the fossil record. They were simply better equipped to survive in the new hostile environment left by the asteroid, and were able to relatively quickly outcompete the now ill-suited dinosaurs whose ecosystem had collapsed.

    Evolution is a theory, not a gospel. It was formulated around the evidence, and the evidence continues to support it. Genetics is a complex science about which our knowledge is limited, but apparently there is much more to the complexity of an organism than simply the number of genes it possesses. Gravity is a theory too. It is an explanation for why --
    1) I hit the ground after I jump

    2) planets orbit stars

    3) lots of other stuff

    The day that a body of evidence surfaces which contradicts the current theory of gravity is the day that good scientists will reformulate the theory to fit the evidence. The church, on the other hand, just got around to apologizing to Galileo. Religion only admits truth when cornered. Science is built on truth. They are not the same except to the religious, who are too dimwitted to see the distinction. Have I made myself clear, or did I use too many multisyllabic words?

    Love,

    THE AVENGER!!!

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  31. THE AVENGER3:53 PM

    P.S.

    Re: "I don't know"

    The words "I don't know" are the first step to acquiring knowledge. The problem with religion is that it claims to know things without evidence to back those claims up. If your doctor refuses to say, "I don't know," and refer you to a specialist when in fact he does not know, then you are going to a bad doctor. As far as the origins of cellular life --
    1) experiments have shown that organic compounds such as amino acids and RNA will spontaneously form under the right conditions and with the necessary elements present (both of which approximate the believed composition and environment of early Earth). Viruses are little more than strands of RNA which are a transitional stage between an organic chemical compound and what we consider to be life. Given the current relationship between DNA, RNA, and amino acids, it is certainly possible for protiens to have developed first, and the record of those proteins (DNA and RNA) to have been backward engineered (the reverse of the current process of DNA and RNA building proteins). Theory? Yes. Incomplete? Yes. More in keeping with the known facts than a magic hand for which there is no precedent or evidence coming down from the sky and saying "LET THERE BE LIFE!"? Absolutely. One does not inject unobserved elements for which there is no objective support into one's theory. It is bad science.
    Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation fitting all known facts is preferable.
    Religion:

    1) Simple? Yes, if you mean simple minded.

    2) Fits the facts? Not even close.

    Oh and by the way: Evolution (the process of natural selection) is fact -- it can be observed in current animal populations today, especially those which reproduce rapidly and in great numbers, like bacteria that develop antibiotic resistence. The only question is: Did the life that we currently observe arrive at its present form by the mechanism that we currently observe?
    I respond: If I see a crushed car sitting in a shallow crater in the dirt at the bottom of a cliff, and there are branches on the car and broken branches on the side of the cliff, did gravity do it? I wasn't there to see it, so God could have put the car there, broken the branches, and put other branches on the car, but my money's on gravity. Science -- It's what's for dinner.

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  32. Anonymous5:37 PM

    I'm a Christian and I believe that demonic possession can and does occur.I don't believe that it happens to just anybody. Recipients are chosen based on many different circumstances and you don't have to be religious to have it occur. On another note, the theory of evolution is just that-a theory. It's not the gospel truth. For that, you must read your Bible.

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  33. Can someone please tell me when the Catholic Church recognized this? I have researched and found the essential story to be true, but the whole idea of this being recognized is BS, from what I see. It may have been recognized in the immediate aftermath, but in 1999 a German Bishop conference got together and ruled it was NOT posession. I just want someone to provide me tangible proof that this is officially recognized. otherwise, it's half-truth, half Hollywood, and that means it doesn't deserve the hype. Please help.

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  34. Anonymous10:39 PM

    Avenger, you are arguing with a geneticist here. I know very well the capabilities of DNA, RNA, and other such forms of "life". A bacterium is a single celled organism which divides. The full reason for the "evolution" of these creatures is the RNA sequence during mitosis gets corrupt and creates a mutation, not because it decided to reprogram its offspring to adapt to a new situation. And facts you say? Explain the string theory and the Quantum theory. No rips in the space/time continuum have been neither observed, created, nor able to be attempted. But that is science. No dimensions have been crossed, created, or observed, but this is science. There are a lot of things not explained by science and because it cannot prove it, or disprove it, it marks it up as doesn't exist. Time travel and changing it. Doesn't exist and is impossible because once a person travels back in time, the events that that person knows directly correlates with him/her doing that action. Physics proves this. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Another word for this in non-scientific terms, fate. Why is a non observed, non created, non proven science like quantum physics being taught in schools, but religion isn't? The theory about evolution again, we did not come from the creatures on the land, but the creatures of the sea. "Fossil evidence" shows that. The only thing archeologist can say by fossils are the date from carbon dating the carbon 14 isotope from the sample and the possible structure of the creature. That is it. Everything from its organic makeup is pure speculation because organic tissue converts to amino acids, which then is absorbs into the vegetation around it after it decays. Taking the possibility of a god out of the equation simply is not scientific just because he cannot be proven by any known means. Remember, blood letting was a proven science to cure all physical ailments. I can even give you more recent medical screw-ups (cox-2 inhibitors) that were proven to work well, but things were left out in the studies. Science is just as corrupt as religion is because man -kind is corrupt. We blindly follow anything without researching, categorizing, and questioning (the main basis of science) and it becomes truth. To blindly follow science is just as dangerous as blindly following religion. Science has no room for compassion and emotion unlike religion and religion has no room for research and development to make lives easier. Just because there isn't an explanation for something, does NOT mean it doesn't exist. Again, science does not acknowledge the "I don't know" factor and always has to come up with a simple (which ends up not being so simple) explanation for things. Acknowledging there is a possibility is the right step in the process of science. Then research it. Do NOT immediately go to disprove something. Common physics says that an elephant can hang from a daisy by its tail off a cliff, but common sense tells you otherwise. A great man once said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.", but this same person also says you want to have sex with your mother and want to kill your father. (Wasn’t that a scene in Hamlet?) Also science has proven that men are the ones in control of the “fate of humanity”. So again now we are scientifically proving men should be in control right? No. That was the same assumption of the bible. Religion and science has its same roots, man. Man writes the bible today like man writes the theories. Both can be corrupted, redesigned, misinterpreted, and misconstrued. There is no one governing science just like there is no one governing religion. Unless we question both but still hold the possibility they both may be true, no one can say one is right and one is wrong. The vast scientific knowledge we have doesn’t even put a quark in the answers of life. The only way we truly know whether if we die and dissolve or die and meet our maker is to die. But what would you prefer, to die believing in God and find out he doesn’t exist, or to die not believing in God and to find out he does? To rule out that God doesn’t exist and religion is absolutely wrong is no different than the Catholic Church chastising Galileo for saying the Earth revolved around the sun. As we know, they were proven wrong. Can science? Oh and as far as gravity, explain the magic bullet theory. It used physics and the laws of gravity to prove one person killed JFK by one bullet. Again, science can be corrupted just as much as religion.

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  35. Anonymous10:44 PM

    Oh, forgot to place this. A virus is not a lifeform. does not fit the classification as life in any biological sense. Read the cell theory and other theories that corrolate to it.

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  36. Anonymous11:08 PM

    Rob: wasn't recognized by the church. In fact, they were weary to call it a possession from the start. Like they should, they decided to fall on science to find out what was going on before using spiritual rites to excommunicate the "demons". Things didn't match up to doctrine on demonic possessions and so basically said, "If you want to do it, go ahead. But we are not backing you." The end result was the very reason they didn't.

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  37. The Avenger5:27 PM

    Anonymous --

    I'm busy today, so hold tight for my rebuttal regarding the load of:
    1)half-truths
    2)lies
    and
    3)misquotes attributed to me
    which you posted. The only thing I have time to do right now is tell you that the only thing that you and a geneticist have in common is that you both handle a lot of sperm. More to come...

    -- THE AVENGER

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  38. Anonymous2:26 AM

    Ahh. Why don't you ask what type of geneticist (there are many different fields) I am instead of showing your ignorance and insulting me. I'm a criminalist for your information. My specialty is dead people, particularly body identification. I take a DNA sample from a body (they are dead, no wacking off here) then take a blood sample from a family member from a suspected missing person and compare. I'm the one who gets to tell the family of the partially decayed little girl that we have found their missing daughter who was raped and murdered. I also deal in toxicology and virology; working on finishing my pre-med to go back to school to become a medical examiner and I thought virology would be most useful, already knew toxicology from my masters. I have voluteered to go to New Orleans to help with the body identification there so I may not have much time to respond, so show me a scientific fact and I will most and likly find you someone 2000+ years who was "told" the same thing and written it in the bible.This is one of those things I desided to write a master thesis on because I found it interesting. And feel free to show the proofs of all the quantum sciences and also successful experiments corralating to the string theory. Now that I have shown my credintials, your turn. And before the insults on my spelling distract from the subject at hand, it is hard to type with a half functioning dominent arm. I prefer not to get into how I recieved that injury, but it does have to deal with dead people also, hense why I'm numb to my job.

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  39. Anonymous6:13 PM

    get over marilyn manson because there are other bands out there who have inspired church burnings, and other ones out there that make all of you who are so convinced that marilyn manson is the anti-christ shit your pants!!!

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  40. Anonymous12:01 PM

    whether or not some people believe in demonic possession or not, it is real...it speaks of it in the Bible, and for those that don't believe in the Bible, or God...you have a rude awakening coming... and some may say how can one base their entire life around something they've never seen...Faith is what holds one together, knowing that after this life (for some) there will be an eternity of everlasting peace and happiness,if they believe in the Savior, but for others it will be an eternity of lonliness and suffering, and for those that don't believe in the Devil, they'll meet him then, and spend their ETERNITY with him. and an eternity is a LONG time. Because it's one or the other, God or Satan, there's no in between. and like said before why would demons want to interfere with the ones that are already on the path to hell, the Devil wants God's children

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  41. Amanda9:06 AM

    I would just like to say that God is real, Satan is real and demonic possession does happen. It happens way more often than we know or would like to know. But there is one thing that I have to make clear because it has been falsely represtented. Christians cannot be possessed. The only ones who can be possessed are those who do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Oh, and whether you believe in God or not He is real. It does not matter what "works for you" or what you have researched. None of that can change what is.

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  42. "I would just like to say that God is real, Satan is real and demonic possession does happen. It happens way more often than we know or would like to know. But there is one thing that I have to make clear because it has been falsely represtented. Christians cannot be possessed."

    And that's the conclusion I've come to myself. However, when I say that "Christians cannot be possessed" I do not mean that simply calling yourself a Christian gives you an exemption. Being Christian is more than just a word. It is a way of life. It is living according to God's will - not your own or Satan's. Every act, every second, of everyday is a struggle whether you know it or not. The promise you have though, is that if you hold on to God, if you stay on Jesus's boat in the storm, and never loose confidence in Jesus Christ you can never be harmed.

    There's a story about St. Gregory, that he once was travelling and stopped at a pagan temple for shelter from a storm. He blessed the temple before he entered it. The priest of the temple eventually returned. And this priest was surrounded by demons who were passing themselves of as pagan Gods. When this priest entered the temple he was perplexed no longer in feeling the presence of the demons.

    St. Gregory then wrote on a piece of paper and gave it to the priest. It read "Satan: Enter". And then the priest felt the precense of these demons once again. The story is that this pagan priest converted because of the experience.

    If we are given the authority by Jesus to deny entry of Satan or any demon into a building, then how is it any different when it comes to our bodies or our souls? There is no difference.

    Annalese Michelle may have been a devout Catholic and Christian for most of her life. But the only way for those demons to have posessed her was if she gave them entry. There must've been a moment of weakness. She must have turned although she never showed it. Only Annalese Michelle knows that for sure.

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  43. Anonymous11:37 PM

    What is wrong with you people? Have you read you'r Bible's? All people , young , old , every religion , has good , and evil! I was raised a catholic , turned christian after marriage , and NOT ONCE have i EVER stopped holding GOD in my heart! On the night my daughter was born , i lost alot of blood , my spirit was weakened by that , i awoke 3 times , starting @ 3;00 am , hearing demonic roaring! each time i awoke , i KNOW it was GOD and my AGELS fighting the DEVIL for my soul! I truely KNOW my faith(blind faith @ that) saved me that night. In the case of Emily Rose , i DONT think she EVER had a doubht about GOD! If ever we need GOD , it is NOW! Please think about kindness to each other , theres way too much sorrow already in this world

    A TRUE christian , and a TRUE friend
    :o)

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  44. Anonymous2:08 PM

    Demons are real people just like you and I. There are green angels on Earth right now (apparently one of them living in each one of us). I don't think they are from Earth. They are very cruel to us and use some form of invisibility so as to remain hidden from the human eye and our devised instruments. I hope most of you are laughing at me right now because any of you who know I am 100% correct in saying all this are probably as close to in hell as me! I only know this because I am "possessed". When I was young I was tying up my shoes waiting for my Mum to come out of the bathroom to take me out for food when all of a sudden I looked up and right there in front of me, standing about 4 or 5 feet away was a green man with short white hair wearing a white robe, bare feet, no smile and his hands were held together. He stood there for 3 or 4 seconds then disappeared right in front of me. This was in the middle of the day. I was fully awake and my parents aren't religious at all. Once you see an angel face to face you too will know. I swear this is all true.

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